Surviving and Thriving... A First Responder's Experience with PTSD

How people perceive trauma varies in each individual but post traumatic stress disorder is not something to be joked about, swept under the rug, or dismissed. First responder, Steve Gomula shares his story in this episode and how his initially unrecognized PTSD nearly cost him his life.  Separating "Gom" from "Steve" and realizing he is more than his experience - he is a person , a dad, a friend and a cherished member of society- is something he continues to strive for every day. 

I hope this episode impacts people listening and encourages us to be there for each other, validate each other and care so deeply that it's almost weird !

Special guest Sadie, Steve's 7 year old daughter, makes the episode all the more special. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:08

All right. Today I have with me a friend and guest, Steve Gamula, who's a retired first responder. Thanks so much for taking the time out to be here with me today.

unknown 0:20

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_04 0:21

Yeah, with your busy dead life. We have Sadie over in the living room with us.

SPEAKER_02 0:27

My personal assistant.

SPEAKER_04 0:28

Yes, being very patient. So yeah, I mean it's great to have you here. I know we were talking about a little bit about some of your history and your life with some of your um experiences with your mental health concerns and experiences, even some PTSD and some of the things that kind of happened with your issues with PTSD. So I appreciate you being able to share with us. Yeah. I mean, if you want to just tell me some of the, you know, the experiences you had. Um, there's there there's talk about like, you know, people joke about PTSD and like everyone says, oh, I have PTSD and I have OCD and we make light of these things, but really it's not to not to be really made light of.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

I'd like to say that everyone has PTSD. It doesn't necessarily have to be someone in combat or in first responder or someone's dog dies, that's traumatic. Someone's cat dies, it's traumatic. It's not gonna, it's not devastating to everybody, but to that one person. So, you know, but then you get into the the industry that I was in, and you know, some veterans and that type of thing, it gets a little different.

SPEAKER_04 1:46

Yeah, no, it is true. PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder, one thing that's traumatizing to one person may not traumatize another person, but it everyone has their own experience of what trauma is. So, yeah, with like you said, with the line you've been in veteran, former police officer, and emergency medical technician, you've seen a lot of things that a lot of us couldn't handle at all.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

There's a lot, there's you know, different statistics out there about it's it's some of it is in a mean form, but it's um you know, the average person sees one or two traumatic incidents in their life when a DMT or a police officer sees thousands. Yeah. And it's just again, it's not that my PTSD is any different than yours or 80s or anybody else's, it's different.

SPEAKER_04 2:36

So is that really the experiences you had are mainly work related, or yes, all I had a great childhood growing up.

SPEAKER_01 2:44

My parents got divorced when I was five, but I don't remember them being together. My dad got remarried, I got a bonus family. Um so it I didn't have I had a great childhood growing up, you know, a lot of family. Um, but mine is all was all work related.

SPEAKER_04 3:00

It's a great way to look at it. A lot of people like look at divorce as such a horrible thing or a horrible thing to go through with your parents, and you're like, oh well, that was a great childhood.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

And yeah, I mean it helped that my parents got along once they got divorced, you know. They they chose to get along for me in it, you know, helped me in the long run. And um the same token, my you know, my ex and I aren't together from Sadie and I we get along, you know, my ex and I get along great for her. So it's the same kind of thing, you know.

SPEAKER_04 3:28

Yeah, no, think think of the kids and make it better. Yeah, absolutely. So did you start to realize you had PTSD or did someone diagnose you, or how did that end up coming about?

SPEAKER_01 3:39

So I was working in, so I uh uh I've done a lot. I was a police officer for a while, then I was an AMT for 17 years. Um at the time I was working in the ER at St. Mary's as a secretary on the desk. Um now this is after my, I mean, I had done probably at this point, probably about 15, about 15 years of EMS. So on the desk. I just wanted to work on the desk and not have to do too much, you know, be out in the in the weather elements and that type of thing. So that's why I went to work in St. Mary's. Um, but one night it was uh it wasn't a particularly busy night, but by ER standards, but the the EMS radio was going off. We'd had patients coming in and out from triage. It was I worked overnight. So and it was it was a busy night, I guess, but not terribly busy. And I'm sitting at the desk and I got this, I had this feeling where everything was just closing in around me. Like my head was like every this was my world was coming in to this. Charge nurse, Ian, was sitting next to me and he looked at me, he said, Are you okay? And I said, Oh, why don't you go take a walk? He saw something in my face, and I went outside and took a deep breath. And I I looked back now, and that was a panic attack. First one I had ever had. Um and uh speaking to a few friends, they they put me in touch with um therapist I see now, Dr. Andrew Berry. He specializes in veterans and first responders. Okay, and he diagnosed me with PTSD and started going down that path.

SPEAKER_04 5:15

And when was that?

SPEAKER_01 5:17

That was probably 2019, 2020, give or take.

SPEAKER_04 5:23

And how long do you think you'd been having like symptoms like that?

SPEAKER_01 5:28

Again, uh looking back, uh, because I've had a lot of time to to realize um earlier that year, so this was probably December, January, and November. I had taken a trip to Alabama. Um, as I mentioned, I'm a veteran. So one of my friends that I was served in the army with was getting married, and I was in the wedding. So my girlfriend and I at the time we drove down, she didn't like to fly, so we drove. Um we got as far as New Jersey, and it was a traffic jam. Whatever traffic's not a big deal. Exactly, exactly. But I look on the other side and there's no traffic, so it tells me there's an accident, you know, I knew what was going on, and then I hear sirens, and on the median on the on this side, a couple of a fire engine and an ambulance, I think, went down, and I got this weird little feeling.

SPEAKER_02 6:15

Yeah, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

Um and we got a little closer and I could see the accident ahead, and they had it covered with a tarp. That usually means it was a fatality involved.

SPEAKER_02 6:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 6:27

And that's probably when I first I started my spiral. Um I didn't know what it was, I just didn't feel right. That's all I knew. And my girlfriend didn't really understand she didn't work in the business. Um, so I didn't say anything. Went down to Alabama. I looking back, I'm I I apologized to my friend all the time. I was like, sorry, I was, you know, I wasn't the most fun of your wedding, but I would that whole weekend was just terrible. I mean, it was a beautiful w wedding venue, you know, beautiful bride and groom. I was in the wedding, but I just mentally had to go.

SPEAKER_04 7:03

The whole weekend, you were just yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:05

So we drove back. Um, drive back wasn't as bad. Um, but uh I got home and then about a week or so later, it's when I got that in the ER, um where it kind of collapsed on me, and then um a few weeks later, um, is when I had an incident where I almost killed myself. Um my daughter's mom and I had broken up and we'd had an argument about something, something trivial. It wasn't even a big deal. It wasn't even an argument, it was a conversation about something, and I just it was one thing that kind of tipped me over the edge, and I went to a cemetery where my grandfather's buried, where I go to the state just to kind of stick a park for me. And um I had a shotgun with me and I almost did it. I'm not religious really, or but I'm kind of spiritual, and I asked my grandfather, I said, So do I do it or I don't? And I can't to this day I can't explain it, but I had this split-second vision of someone pulling up, and I I I think it was one of my friends who was an officer, but it was me. I was in that car and I pulled up and I saw myself sitting there and I had already done it in a vision my vision, and I snapped out of it, and whatever it was was gone out of my head, the bad stuff, and then um at just before that I texted a picture of the bullet to my friend, firefighter in um Schenectady County, and uh she called APD and my ex um Lauren since Katie's mom, and Lauren came to get me and brought me to St. Mary's, and then I spent the weekend there and started the dance, so to speak.

SPEAKER_04 8:52

Yeah, the the therapist and the therapist and I got in trouble.

SPEAKER_01 8:56

Um the weapon that I had was legally owned by me, but I had an illegal AR-15 at my house that had been in a closet locked up in a box I hadn't seen in years. But one of the troopers came in and asked if I had anything at the house, and I said yes, and off the books AR, and they got it. And I got in trouble for that. So um actually today I got a call that I'm no longer on probation.

SPEAKER_03 9:17

Oh, that's so you were celebrating with us by talking about it.

SPEAKER_01 9:21

Um so it that was another journey that I had to go on with legal stuff.

SPEAKER_04 9:26

No, yeah, but that that feeling that you had, it was the PTSD that led to those feelings of was it severe anxiety, or how are you feeling at that moment?

SPEAKER_01 9:38

I can't even explain it really. It's just I just felt like the world was closing in on me and and I didn't know what it was, and I couldn't really I get and again I look back and uh sorry, keep that too much. Um I looked back and it was a panic attack because I was having you know some difficulty breathing and the you know the tunnel vision and all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_04 9:56

And when I went outside and got some air, I felt a little better, and then I came back in and so do you think that um some of the you know we have a lot of kids, teenagers who feel that way, like the world's closing in on them and they we have like attempts from teenagers, whether it's hotels or you know what whatever they have. Yeah. So can you describe a little bit of I mean you're you were mature about it. It's it's almost like I don't know, you you did some you did something for yourself. These teenagers, they don't have this awareness or this I don't know, this mental maturity. What would you suggest for that?

SPEAKER_01 10:43

You know, it it's hard because everybody says, Oh, if you need anything, reach out. It's easier said than done. Yeah. I could at any moment have reached out to any about a hundred different people and said, Hey, I'm having problems, and they would have come to me, and but I didn't in my mind, I didn't want to bother someone. You know, if you and I are we're friends and and I'm struggling, and I said, Hey, um, I could call you up and say, Hey, I need some help, but in my mind, I'll you have enough problems going on, you know, whether it's my friend or you have this going on, you have that going on. You don't need my nonsense. But in actuality, they wanted to hear about my nonsense. Um, when it comes to it, someone you know younger, like you were mentioning, teenagers and that, and even younger, unfortunately, it's hard. Like, I don't even know what how how uh I I I preach to people, you know, don't reach out, reach out to people. You know, if you see someone struggling, reach out to them because they can't reach out to you. And if there's a way to, you know, get it. If I were to do it, if I were to speak to kids younger, you know, in high school and middle school and that type of thing, I would try and get pe groups of people to watch each other. You know, that that's the way I tried I try to preach in EMS is watch out for each other, check on each other, make it weird.

SPEAKER_04 11:56

Yeah, make it weird.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

I may I say that all the time, you know, make it weird.

SPEAKER_03 11:59

Well, I love that.

SPEAKER_01 12:01

Yeah. Are you okay? You alright? You know, do you need anything? And it's I'm not a wallflower. I was never, I was always the funny guy. I'm still am. I I try I want everybody around me to be happy. I want everyone around me to be in a good mood. And I was like that in every job I've ever been in. Nobody thinks that guy needs help.

SPEAKER_04 12:23

Right. You know, it's it's a lot of times it is that person who is friendly, outgoing seems like, oh, they're fine, they're fine, who's actually struggling, and you have no idea about it. And you're you're so right. Like everyone says, like, oh, if you need anything, let me know. But let's be more specific with each other.

SPEAKER_01 12:43

Like if you need, I don't know, someone to talk to, call me, text me, you know, or like you said, let's make it weird with each other, let's reach out and say hey, especially with close friends, because you you know, when when you with friends that you have, uh whether it's a coworker or someone you work with regularly, you get to know what someone is like. Yeah, you can tell them someone's off. Um you know, make it weird. And when I say make it weird, it's like be like a mother, kind of checking on people, be an annoying mother and check on everyone, and then hopefully that turns around and they're checking on you as well. And if everyone's checking on each other, then you know maybe the that one person who's struggling won't fall through the cracks.

SPEAKER_04 13:24

And sometimes the person that's struggling, like you said, either it seems like everything's going well for them, everything's great in their life, or they seem like extra irritable or annoying, and like it's an annoying way. So you think you want to stay away from that person, but maybe that's the person who actually needs help.

SPEAKER_01 13:42

And for me, you know, I was working in EMS where we worked 24-hour shifts, a lot of times a lot longer than 24-hour shifts. Most of those were without sleep. So am I irritable because I'm I'm tired? Am I irritable because I just went to that bad call? Um, you know, are you irritable because you're just a jerk? You know, there's so many different personalities in in any frag group, but when you get into this kind of this kind of industry, it's hard to tell. So that's why you just have to check on everybody has to check on each other and almost make it like you see police departments that think they're roll calls, even if as part of a roll call or as part of a shift change, you talk, how's everybody doing? What did you see last night? Yeah, that kind of thing. And the same thing could be, you know, in schools. If there's some way to do that, whether it's a homeroom, you know, you know, kids aren't gonna want to, oh, I saw this last night, but if you can somehow get through to these kids that they can find someone they trust, whether it's a counselor, a teacher, or a physician, um, they can go to them, but just make it weird.

SPEAKER_04 14:45

Yeah, yeah, exactly. We do have to like genuinely check on people. Um, like during the time when you got when you were diagnosed, did they go through the four main criteria with PTSD and the different um symptom categories? Like there's avoidance and then the hypervigilance, and there's different categories within that.

unknown 15:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

Um working on the hypervigilance part. Okay. Um, you know, the and DMS and police work and everything is um told people say, Don't you know, face the door so you can see any threats. What am I gonna do? You know, even if I'm a police officer, what am I gonna do?

SPEAKER_02 15:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:31

It's just silly. You know, when you're working, it's one thing, but when you're off duty and maybe with your family and your wife or your girlfriend knows, oh don't you know, let dad face the door. Yeah, I try to get away from that now because I'm not in that life anymore. And that that threat isn't coming for me. You know, there's you can't plan for every every contingency, but for the most part, eat dinner. And that's what I'm trying to do is ground myself a little bit more. The further I get away from the you know, the swirl, the you know, the things that were causing those the stress, the triggers, I guess, so to speak. Um, the further I get away from those, the more I start thinking about yeah, getting away from those behaviors.

SPEAKER_04 16:16

Like not letting them rule what you do.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

And they did. They really did. I mean, it would be you know, you sit down and you're looking around a restaurant, just a restaurant, basically I could be with a restaurant with Sadie, and you're looking around, okay, there's a threat.

SPEAKER_04 16:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

There's a threat, call 911. Yeah, I don't I don't need to be there. You're not at work, you're not exactly so it's you have to find a way to turn that switch off. When you're at work, it's a little different, especially when you're in uniform, you're in whether it's a target or what have you. But you have to find a way to turn that off. And I think that all starts with the job and the people you're with, and again, checking on each other and you know, just recognizing, like, hey, I saw you're doing this, everything okay, and and that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_04 16:59

Yeah, and people hopefully are receptive. I think that people do get defensive because it is a stigma. Like, are you calling me weak? Are you calling me, you know, crazy?

SPEAKER_01 17:11

Or like are the word stigma.

SPEAKER_04 17:13

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:14

So I found that so when I when I had my incident, um, I was also serving at the time on the common council here in Amsterdam of an alderman. Um so everything that happened to me got intensified because it was in the paper every day. Alderman, Alderman, Alderman. So and I had a I had arrested because I got arrested because of it. So every single day it was literally in social media and in the paper and and all of that kind of thing. So that was more difficult. Um, not saying it's my situation's any better or worse than anyone else's, but for me it made it more difficult to get past. So um, and then as part of my arrest, I was sentenced to uh mental health court, mental health treatment court um here in Montgomery County. So I did that for a year. I participated in that and then I graduated, and then I just as I mentioned just recently then released some probation. But part of mental health court is I had to see my therapist, and and we would have to submit um writing assignments about just about different topics, and that alone, the writing that I did helped me more than anything.

SPEAKER_04 18:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

Um obviously therapy helped as well.

SPEAKER_04 18:23

But uh was the the writing was part was that part of um the exposure therapy they talk about, or is that just like basically for for mental health for treatment court?

SPEAKER_01 18:36

Um, we we kind of ran along the guidelines with drug court, but just I I was the only one in the mental health portion of it, so I had to follow all their rules. But it's basically it's a deep dive into yourself, you know. The the topics they gave us were made they wanted to see how we think and how we would work through different problems, and I think that helped me a lot in processing everything because I had to process everything publicly. Whereas everybody else, you know, you have uh uh an incident where you all you almost commit suicide and you're just go to the hospital and your home and your family, but yeah, I'm in the paper, I'm in the public eye, so then that's when I went public with everything that happened with me, and hopefully to be able to hopefully help other folks.

SPEAKER_04 19:18

Well, I it's I mean it was a good excuse to be able to do that and help people.

SPEAKER_01 19:23

Exactly. Because that might just instead of helping out an ambulance, I'm helping this one.

SPEAKER_04 19:27

Yeah, yeah, there's always some way to help.

SPEAKER_01 19:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 19:30

And it's great that you're not trying to sweep under the rug, you're talking about it and letting people know. And because there's so many people that probably do struggle with something along those lines that don't even know it. They don't really know.

SPEAKER_01 19:47

And I as I said, I get I'm pretty public on social media about things, and I I put some writing writing samples up there, and one or two people every week reach out to me. You can tell they're sniffing for help. Um, they're asking. Um, I tell them I'm not an expert, but tell them how I dealt with things, and I try limited resources I have, I can put them in touch with some people that at least get some help.

SPEAKER_04 20:11

Yeah. But um I'll get those resources from you off camera and like put them on my website and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

So people Yeah, definitely. And um, you know, so they reach out to me for help, and a lot of them is people I don't even know. There's friends are friends, and I they they tell people, hey, reach out to Steve's and through this and want to toot my own horn, but I think I've helped a few people.

SPEAKER_04 20:31

I I'm sure you have. Like talking about things and just being open, sharing your experience with people. No, because like I said, I think the biggest challenge is not knowing that this is what you're going through. There might be people that just feel like they're going like they're going crazy or they, you know, they're just not well, or they they don't know. They don't know what's happening.

SPEAKER_01 20:54

For me, I just snapped. Like you hear people snapping. I did. I it like something just yeah snapped in me and it snapped me back out as well, but it was in looking back, it was a steady, you know, you know, things that I've been through within that 20-year period before I I left EMS. Um, you know, I relationship issues, I I was you know, infidelity, I cheated, um, a lot of textbook PTSD things. Um I wasn't addicted to anything and didn't get it, but I was addicted to work. I would just work a hundred hours a week. You know, it just kept me at work and I was numb and I didn't have to do it. And then, you know, the the cheating and that type of thing. And then I lost I I was married once and I was I got divorced, and then Sadie's mom and I, we didn't make it either. So it it it's you know, there these are things that I did myself with PTSD. Kind of clouded the right decision making and that kind of things.

SPEAKER_04 21:59

I mean yeah, or you have a condition, and it's it's like a battle to struggle, and like you said, it's not. An excuse per se, but it has negative impacts on our lives, and that's why it it is it's great that you got help that you're getting help. And do you feel you feel better now?

SPEAKER_01 22:19

I feel I'm thinking clearly for the first time in 20 years.

SPEAKER_02 22:23

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 22:23

Um I was put on medication. I didn't, you know, I didn't need a lot, a lot of high doses of anything, but just a little bump here and there, and it helped clear the fog. And yeah, you know, I I in therapy I talked how before I I was on meds and everything that all the bad things, I say demons or whatever, all these squirrel, you know, the things that were squishing in my head. Now they're like there's like a force field around me.

SPEAKER_02 22:51

Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

And the demons are there for a long time. It took me. I'm like, okay, when are they coming? When's the bad stuff coming?

SPEAKER_02 22:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:57

And now that they're not here, when things are coming, and I can relax, I can keep those things at bay because I've I've learned to slow down, I've learned to think, and I and I have that that clarity now that I never really had, I realized.

SPEAKER_04 23:14

I think it is important, like you said, you had like a little bit of medication just to help with things, but they say the goal standard is a therapy, like the behavioral therapy, the cognitive therapy.

SPEAKER_01 23:27

The therapy definitely saved my life.

SPEAKER_04 23:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:29

Yes, that's awesome. Doc Berry, as I mentioned, he specializes in first responders. But if it weren't for him and you know, getting everything out and getting to the root of a lot of my problems, that I wouldn't be here for Sadie and my other.

SPEAKER_03 23:46

Yes, yeah, you can be here for her.

SPEAKER_01 23:48

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 23:49

She's a happy little girl. You want to keep it that way. Exactly. Um, you know, people when when they are not sure if they think they have symptoms or they feel similar, like with I think there's the the four categories. I do need like reminders of because I know there's yeah, the intrusive thoughts or like nightmares, things like that, avoiding situations, two negative alterations in mood, and then two symptoms of arousal and and like hyperreactivity. So that's the symptoms that I would have.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

I mean, to when uh right after everything happened, I I was afraid to leave the house. Um, you know, I'm an alderman, everything's in the paper, I'm crazy, you know. And I would go into a store, grocery store, just have my earbuds in and my hat pulled down over my head, and I thought that everybody in that store was looking at me. Oh, there he is, there he is. Not a single person was. Yeah, but to me, in my mind, that's what I yeah, and I had to work through that with therapy, and that was once I got past that, it helped me grow and it helped me heal a lot more. Once I realized that the politics was was glad I got it out of my system, but it's yeah, that was just a separate, it wasn't what I was, it was just something I did, and I had that identity where I was a cop, I was an EMT, I was a soldier, I was an alderman, but I forgot about Steve. Yeah. So once I got rid of all that stuff, all that identity stuff, and I realized that I was me, I was Sadie's dad, and Nick and Hannah's dad, that's what I am. I wasn't defined by what I saw and what I did. Yeah, that was the hardest part for me to get it.

SPEAKER_04 25:34

Yeah, you're you're still a person, you're a great person who went through something. We can't define our challenges, we can't define ourselves by our challenges. They are our challenges and they're outside of us. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 25:51

I also so I mentioned earlier when we were speaking as well that my my nickname is GOM because my last name is Gamula. So there are a lot of people out there who didn't even know my first name. Because in EMS and you called everybody by your last name, but I was Gom. And further I got into Gom, the less I got Steve.

SPEAKER_02 26:09

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

And after everything happened, and I started, you know, therapy and really doing the work they talked about that I realized that I miss Steve and I gotta find him again. And the kids need to see Steve more than Gom. They don't need to see the guy that's the goofball in the ambulance station.

SPEAKER_04 26:27

You know, going the character that you're playing.

SPEAKER_01 26:30

And that's really what it was. It was a character. And some friends, you know, to the till I die, they'll call me Gown. But there's I like being Steve.

SPEAKER_04 26:38

I like thinking about it too, like I told you in in the kitchen now when we were talking about kid food because cause Sadie's here. Um and you know, I I feel like I'm just a big kid. I feel like we're all like it's gonna sound so like um just just wacky, but I feel like we're all we are all like little kids. We're just like children that need help. I agree. We all are.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

We're just kids, we're just children that grew up, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_04 27:04

Yeah, the years went by, but we're still those children. That's when we don't always know how to do it right and we don't know how to always deal with it. Um but yeah, these these symptoms, like you said, it I think people who have questions, whether they're children, adults, if they if they feel like you know something's off, or I'm I'm feeling like extra avoiding things or getting nightmares or whatever they're feeling, they should try to reach out to someone.

SPEAKER_01 27:34

Exactly. And it's not always, you know, they say reach out to a to a medical provider. Yeah, that's great. You can make a phone call. Hey, I need an appointment, but and we'll get you on a waiting list. Yeah, well that that's one of the big problems, but reaching out to someone, one of your friends is probably the the lesser, uh the the least harder avenue to go on because your friends you're friends with, you know, and you they know you. So if you can find a way somehow to talk to your friends, family, whoever, at least to get that ball rolling, and then maybe they can put you know help you get in touch with someone else. And you know, that's you know, I mentioned earlier that I hate the word stigma because the minute anything happens, it's it's almost like the old days when someone had diabetes, they'd be like, Oh my god, the sugar. Yeah, right. Oh, new PTSD. Yeah, PTSD, and I yell it loud and pro I'm proud. You know, I I'm not proud of some of the things I've done, but well, we all have things we which we then do.

SPEAKER_03 28:33

Like nobody's perfect. If you were to sit here and judge other people for what they did, I'd like to know what you did.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

Absolutely. So it's hard to do that, but if you can just find a way to get past all of that shame, and yeah, you know, I found that the shame comes afterward, you know.

SPEAKER_02 28:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:50

Um when I was on the city council and uh everything was coming out publicly, you know, that was the hard part for me, and that's when I got the shame with like going to the store and thinking everyone was looking at me. Every now and then I get that feeling, but then I shrug it off and I don't care.

SPEAKER_03 29:05

And even if they are, it's like exactly still I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't judge someone like that.

SPEAKER_04 29:11

We we all know our truths, you know. And people, no matter what it is, they're gonna think things. So we all know our as long as we know our truth. Like you said, that friend just reaching out to that friend or that person, actually taking people up on their offer. You said if if you if I need anything, I need something now. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 29:35

And if it's kids, teens, I always say too, if you talk to your parent, but if you don't want to or can't, a teacher, uh kids, I I it's you know, it's difficult to talk to your parents about anything because sometimes they're too close. So speaking to a coach or a counselor or a teacher might be or one of your classmates who are better friends with one of the adult, you know, in school or something like that, if there's a way to get through. But I think if you if schools and districts and that type of thing, if they can start introducing mental health awareness early, like they do with anything else, I think that's a good way to start make a child healthy because everyone should be in therapy. I don't care if you don't know if you've seen trauma or not. I think it's a crazy world we live in. Yeah. And not nothing like we grew up in, so it's even worse now. So the things that these kids are having to deal with, if they could get that treatment, even just start it, yeah, just knowing that it's okay to say, Hey, I don't feel good. Yeah, I don't feel well. My head's, you know, not just because you have a cold or not just because you're sick. Mental health needs to be thrown right in with cardiology. Exactly. I'm not sure. You know, cardiology and a different allergy than mental health. There shouldn't be any different.

SPEAKER_04 30:52

You have a a dentist, a dentist, a doctor, a mental health provider. Exactly. And like oh, just a way to to get things out, like you said, writing it out was good for you. People they have different ways. People like to like get their their feelings out by going to the gym or or talking to someone or talking to a friend. Um, everyone's got their way, and that's that's fine. Like people, like songwriters, they write songs and they sing about I see people, Leah, I see people singing.

SPEAKER_03 31:25

Like, I wish I had a good voice. I want to sing about my life.

SPEAKER_04 31:29

So it's it's um, yeah, we should utilize because like you realize you have a reason to live and live your best life. Like you have your daughter and your friends, your family. People, no matter who you are, there's someone that needs you to be alive and well.

SPEAKER_01 31:47

And it's it's hard to see that in the in the middle of the storm that your brain is putting you through those demons and they're all squeezing in. But you know, not saying everybody needs medication, but if you can find some way to push those things away in order to get some help, and then someone can help you keep those things away. I think that's the key is to finding that kind of thing, you know, in my world, whether it's EMS or police or fire. I'm encouraged to see a lot of academies are starting to incorporate mental health awareness into their police academies, fire academies, EMT schools. Yeah, they need more of it.

SPEAKER_02 32:23

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 32:24

Because it's we're tough nuts to crack. Yeah, we're we're the ones that are.

SPEAKER_04 32:28

You're the protectors, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:32

But we're just regular people. We're just people, your kids. Yes, right. Absolutely. Big kids sometimes most ambulance stations and firehouses are fraternity houses anyway.

SPEAKER_02 32:44

So we're all just big kids. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:46

But there's some serious conversations that you have to have.

SPEAKER_02 32:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:48

And I think they start not. I mean, they they shouldn't have they shouldn't start in your therapist's office. They should start in the station.

unknown 32:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:57

Guys need to talk, guys and girls need to talk to each other.

SPEAKER_02 33:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:00

Whether it's a bad call or even if it's, you know, I I have a few calls that stick with me, whether they're a few from the ER and a few from EMS and police work. But not everybody has those. It could be something else. So it's and I don't have triggers as I've mentioned, but some people do, so you have to figure out a way to to work around those as well.

SPEAKER_04 33:24

Yeah. No, that's do you have any like other advice for like working around those things or things that you maybe didn't do yourself, but you feel like might help other people.

SPEAKER_01 33:35

So for me I mean it's been just about four years since my my my incident. Um I isolated myself for the most part. You know, I had to go through the mental health treatment court and everything else, but I isolated myself. I cut off a lot of friends, I cut out anything negative in my life, I pretty much kicked it out. I don't recommend that to everybody. Not everybody does well with isolation.

SPEAKER_02 33:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:00

Um, but for me it worked. You need if however you work through something, um lean into it, whether it's a hobby. I recommend people get hobbies, especially if someone's going to become a first responder. Yes. I have a lot of people reach out and say, hey, I want to be an EMT. Should I do it? Absolutely, but you better have some hobbies.

SPEAKER_04 34:18

Yeah, yeah. Have something on the side.

SPEAKER_01 34:20

Exactly, because don't do three 24-hour shifts in a row. Do a 24, do something fun, then maybe do another 24.

SPEAKER_02 34:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:29

Because more likely than not, we just do that those three days straight. I mean, that was there were weeks where I would spend the whole weekend at two ambulance stations and I wouldn't see my family because I was addicted to working. And that wasn't a very healthy way to do it. And I realize now that's what I was doing.

SPEAKER_02 34:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:47

Um, so I I definitely recommend, and it's not even in the first responder world, but kids have a hobby.

SPEAKER_02 34:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:55

Not necessarily saying every kid should play a sport, but I think extracurricular activities are huge.

SPEAKER_02 35:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:01

You know, they help you grow as a person, but they also keep your mind engaged and can keep it off to bad things, whether it's whatever is bothering. I mean, there's any number of things that could bother a kid.

SPEAKER_02 35:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:13

Staying busy, you know, not to avoid it, but it can help you sometimes work through those problems as well.

SPEAKER_04 35:18

Yeah, that's great. And also to see a different perspective and not just focus on something.

SPEAKER_01 35:23

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 35:24

And realize there's other things and other life and and it's good for you doing things you enjoy, right?

SPEAKER_01 35:32

Exactly. Well, that's you know, if you if you hang around first responders, you go to a barbecue and it's all cops, they're gonna talk police work. Yeah, and they're gonna talk about their union, their retirement, and police work. Firefighters, pretty much the same thing.

SPEAKER_04 35:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

EMS, we talk about EMS calls.

SPEAKER_04 35:51

Yeah, same with doctors and nurses are always because I worked in the yeah, find something away from something.

SPEAKER_01 35:58

There's more than the firehouse, there's more than the police station, there's more than the ER in a hospital. Go to a winery, go to a vineyard, go to a baseball game, do something, go to a concert, just occupy your mind. And that goes for anyone, just yeah, keeping your mind occupied, creative. You know, not everyone's a writer, not everyone's a singer, but you can do something.

SPEAKER_04 36:18

But everybody likes something. Like when I ask kids who aren't doing anything, well, what do you like? What do you like? They always end up coming up with something. Even some kids they love to bake or cook. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 36:28

You know, and you know, some kids video games, okay. Well, you want to learn how to code, you want to learn how to make video games, kind of find a way to make something you like into something, yeah. You know, not just something to do just to kill time, it could be something that maybe it's a career, maybe it's not, or maybe it's just a lifelong hobby. And I try and stress that folks who reach out to me now, whether they're in EMT or whatever. I just what do you do for fun? Yeah, what's fun? All we do is work, we'll stop that.

SPEAKER_04 36:57

Something's got because work is work, and exactly.

SPEAKER_01 37:00

And it's it's it's I mean, you know, uh I lived at the station and I don't I look back now and I feel guilty as heck. You know, my kids say don't worry about it there, but I missed out on a lot of things because of that, and that's I didn't have the addiction aspect of it, but the work of my addiction, and I kind of miss just as someone who's an addict, you know, they alienate their family doing those things. I alienated my family a lot by working too much, so other things happen as well.

SPEAKER_04 37:29

Yeah, if we all look back, there's things that we could have done better, could have would have shut up, but that's why we talk about it and we try to teach other people, or not teach or preach, but just share.

SPEAKER_00 37:44

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 37:45

Um, so what what do you keep yourself busy with now then?

SPEAKER_01 37:50

Um I write a lot. I've always been a writer. I so I started off like I wanted to be uh a newswriter. I w I went to journalism school, okay and I had dreams of writing about the Yankees and the Giants, and that didn't happen. My first newspaper job was here in Amsterdam, a small paper that's out of business now. But I'll be a sports writer. Nope. No one write on the police be. Okay. And my dad is a retired police officer from here in the city, so I grew up at the police station. Wow. So I blame it all on him, you know. So uh sorry, Dad.

SPEAKER_04 38:20

Um it's okay. We we gotta teasingly blame our dad for that.

SPEAKER_01 38:24

Yes, but you know, it is his fault. You know, he'd come home wearing that leather and a big hand can and I'm like, and chips was a big police uh TV show back then, and I'm like, I need to be a cop.

SPEAKER_04 38:33

Well, that's what I'm gonna do, yeah exactly.

SPEAKER_01 38:35

And then he was in the army in Vietnam, and I was like, Oh, I'm gonna be a soldier, so I I didn't do any of that stuff. I ended up going to school for journalism and I went in the army afterward, but um getting that police beat and uh it got into my into my head, and then well, journalism went out the window, and now I want to be a cop, so that's when I I uh took the test to get on the sheriff's office here in Montgomery County and down that road, and then um eventually became an EMT. So now we're yeah, so I write a lot and I've been writing my story, but I've actually been writing some children's stories for some.

SPEAKER_04 39:14

Oh, cool.

SPEAKER_01 39:15

That's kind of my new session.

SPEAKER_04 39:19

That's really awesome. You'll have to share some of them.

SPEAKER_01 39:22

I will, yeah. Once they're shareable, I will definitely they're just kind of rough drafts, but yeah, we've been working on some stuff, her and I, and then just spending more time, you know, trying to get closer to my older kids because I have two or three children and um Tony's you know, trying to connect with them. And my mom passed away last year, but my dad and stepmom are still here, so I'm getting back closer to them as well. And you know, again, my dad's a retired police officer, and that's so he's been through a lot of the things I have. So I I bounce a lot of things off of him, and and that's he's always been my unofficial therapist.

SPEAKER_04 39:55

Is he also learning things from you? I'm sure. I think so.

SPEAKER_01 39:58

He hasn't said it, but um, I think he is. You know, he he's he's learning things. I I think he sees things that happened to me that had happened to him also. So I um I'm I hope that he's you know, we haven't talked about it too much, but I I think he's he learned a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 40:14

Yeah, because their generation, they didn't really talk about this at all.

SPEAKER_01 40:19

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 40:19

We're talking about it more, and then the next generation will hopefully And for me, I I I became a police officer in 1997, and I was at the tail end of that old crusty cop.

SPEAKER_01 40:31

Hey, we don't talk about our problems, kid.

SPEAKER_02 40:33

Yeah, yeah. You never did.

SPEAKER_01 40:34

I don't ever remember. In the six years I was a police officer, I don't remember a single time anyone talking about anything. Yeah. Um my first call off of field training was a self-inflicted gunshot wound somebody had. And I went and I had no idea what to do. A detective showed up and they took care of it, and I had to go back on patrol and deal with it.

SPEAKER_02 40:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:58

That was normal.

SPEAKER_02 40:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:59

You know, and some other things, but that's not normal.

SPEAKER_02 41:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:03

Anyone involved in that call should be pulled aside after the after their shift or whatever, you know, like we do in healthcare, the critical incident stress debriefing, and that type of thing. And I think they're doing it more now with police officers, but that was a 25-year-old kid, the only dead person I've ever seen were family members at funerals. So to see that, it's kind of a shock.

SPEAKER_04 41:27

Yeah. Kind of where kind of started years, years of time.

SPEAKER_01 41:32

That's exactly where it started, and then it steamrolled, and I didn't really realize it until about five or six years ago.

SPEAKER_04 41:39

No, exactly. I'm really glad. I mean, it's pretty impressive that you're you recognize something, you got help, and you're making change. A lot of people live their whole lives and nothing changes.

SPEAKER_01 41:52

I wish I'd recognize sooner, but I didn't, so I can't I can't think about that.

SPEAKER_04 41:57

But um No, just move forward and exactly.

SPEAKER_01 42:00

That's what I'm trying to do, and just live my best life for myself.

SPEAKER_04 42:03

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, absolutely. So, any other words of wisdom or last things?

SPEAKER_01 42:10

Anything that I didn't mention that you wanted to mention, I think if I if anyone were ever to take anything away from this, is build a life for yourself outside of work if you're doing my kind of and my kind of business, or maybe a doctor or a nurse or anything, especially if you're in the emergency side. But even up on the floors and everywhere else in a hospital, it's just as bad, just a little different. Get a life outside of that. Yeah, because that life outside will save you on your life in there.

SPEAKER_04 42:37

And it's great that we do things that are like selfless and heroic, but in order to do it well and continue to also be a human being, it's good to have other things you do, pay attention to your that that's also brings you back to the the compassion aspect of it.

SPEAKER_01 42:56

Yeah, I'll stick with healthcare and EMS. Towards the end, someone could have dropped down in front of me in Dunkin' Donuts when I'm off duty, had a and I'd have walked away because I I'm not worried about it.

SPEAKER_04 43:07

You had nothing left in me.

SPEAKER_01 43:09

Um now it'll be a little different. But yeah, it's and I I I felt guilty that I felt that way.

SPEAKER_02 43:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:15

But you get so jaded, yeah. And and especially in healthcare, but nowadays, with just the way people, you know, the system itself, and it's when you get on the street and you're going to these homes, the same homes and the same people. And you know, now I realize with someone, you know, you deal with someone a lot, we call them a frequent flyer. They were annoying to me. It was I hated getting woken up at three o'clock in the morning to go deal with a nonsense call, but there was a reason why this person was coming, aside from being sad or hurt. They were calling out for help as well. And we're there for them. And a lot of times you get so defeated and so storm and everything, and it's over that you just lose that compassion.

SPEAKER_04 43:57

You can't give anymore. You can't give from an empty cup, they say, or exactly. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 44:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:03

Yeah. So you have to keep yeah, have to keep it flowing. Keep you can't get too numb.

SPEAKER_01 44:10

And one thing I've noticed by myself since that's happened, it's been four years since my incident, my compassion's come back.

SPEAKER_02 44:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:17

You know, whether someone is just an old bum on the street or they're whatever, I I look at them differently now. Before it used to be almost contempt.

SPEAKER_02 44:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:29

Now it's why are you like that?

SPEAKER_02 44:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:32

It's more of an analytical thing. Like I feel not so much that I feel bad for someone, but it's what did you go through that you all led to this, whether they're homeless or they're an act, they're an addict, or and I look back on some things I would see in the ER when someone would come in and be an out of control patient. Well, you didn't wake up this morning and say, I'm just gonna be an out-of-control guy. You know, so that's something that domino effect kind of thing.

SPEAKER_04 44:55

That's so great. So nice to, yeah, it's it's so great to like think about people that way. And I mean, this chapter in your life seems like a new chapter and a great chapter.

SPEAKER_01 45:06

I feel like I have a whole, you know, I I joke around of tomorrow's my birthday, I'll be 53. And I happy birthday. Thank you. I'm gonna live 48 years. That means I'll be a hundred and I'm gonna die on my the day after my hundredth birthday. So I have 48 more years, 150 years and one day old. So I have 48 more years. That's a lot of life to live.

SPEAKER_04 45:25

Right. No, it is exactly. Every every year, Ken, it's true. People, you know, you you never know how long you're gonna live and what's gonna happen. So as long as we're here, just keep doing.

SPEAKER_01 45:38

Exactly. And it's make the best of it while you're here. You know, I'm learning from my mistakes of the past and my previous life, where it's like, okay, I don't want to be that guy. Yeah, I don't I didn't I look back now and as I said, I was isolated a lot. I did a lot of thinking and writing, and I don't like the guy I was a lot, a lot of the guy I was back then. Sometimes, you know, I was fun. I had a lot of fun, but I also don't like a lot of the things I did. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:04

Well, so it's yeah, we we we do live and learn, right?

SPEAKER_01 46:08

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 46:09

Some people don't, I try to exactly try, try to. It's not it's not easy, but you're making these amazing efforts.

SPEAKER_01 46:17

I'm thinking I'm trying, you know. My goal is to, I would like to eventually start a nonprofit of some sort to um help EMS, folks in EMS. Um there's different organizations, police. The I believe it's the state police have its acronym is NYLEAP, and that's a mental health um focused organization. A lot of fire department, you know, the fire department unions have them, but there isn't much out there for EMS. So I my goal is to get a few old timers like myself and I together to put something together and maybe I don't know what it's going to be yet, but some sort of support system for EMS. You know, yeah. We've been there, we know what it's like, and there's a whole generation of kids coming up through the that are starting over, and I don't want them to be in the cemetery with a shotgun. Yeah, I want them to call me or call their partner or call me to the city. And the same thing with you know, I would like to get into you know, also speak with kids and just not uh cautionary tale, you know. Yeah, not say don't be an empty but if you're going to right.

SPEAKER_04 47:22

Well, it's good to know all this, so you can go in with the right perspective and know well.

SPEAKER_01 47:28

Everybody thinks, oh, I want to be an EMT, I want to be a cop, I want to be a firefighter. Okay. This is the you're gonna put that fire out, you're gonna catch that bad guy, you're gonna help that baby get delivered. But let me tell you some bad things. And the bad things are meant to scare you, but how you're gonna deal with those bad things are what you're gonna need.

SPEAKER_04 47:47

To be prepared.

SPEAKER_01 47:48

Exactly. Because again, that guy that that took his own life my first day as a police officer, that's stuck with me for several years later.

SPEAKER_04 47:58

And we do kind of glamorize everything, but we need to know, you know, kids need to know the other part of it.

SPEAKER_01 48:07

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 48:08

And like you said, not to scare them, but to prepare them so that they do like continue having activities that they can take with them lifelong when they're gonna do these professions.

SPEAKER_01 48:18

Exactly. And it's all you can hope for.

SPEAKER_04 48:21

Yeah, exactly. And it's good to if you are feeling any sort of way, whether it's trauma, anxiety, to have these connections, these support systems, and people that validate you. You don't need to have people around you, like you said, you got rid of a lot of the excess.

SPEAKER_01 48:41

Exactly, the negative influence, the negative energy of people and energy and that kind of thing. Um I think people can take a step back and look at the people in their lives and realize who should be there and who shouldn't. You know, a lot of folks, we keep people in our lives that are comfortable to us, but they're not necessarily the right type of person. Serving us, as they say. So trying to re-you know again, it's really realizing a lot of things about yourself, and then when you hear, you know, people they say, do the work. Well, that's the work, is just sitting up looking back and thinking. There's a lot of nights where I didn't sleep, just thinking about things I've done in my life, and I went pretty far back and done a lot of things over in my mind, and for me, that kind of helped me deal with a lot of things, but it held me back a little bit because it took me a while to get over the guilt, you know, the bad things as I mentioned. I cheated, I um you know, did a few did a lot of other things, and once you get past that guilt part of it, and that helps as well. But yeah, it's not easy.

SPEAKER_04 49:45

It's a process, it is, and a support system is a great idea, and yeah, resources, which like I said, I'll get resources from you, I'll throw them on my website, and that way people can have take away. So, all right, well, appreciate your time. This has been great. Yeah, your story's so great, and yes, we we have our yeah, special, but wouldn't be uh a true episode. Yeah, okay, awesome.

SPEAKER_00 50:14

All right, none of that?

SPEAKER_03 50:17

No, Sadie.

SPEAKER_04 50:19

This is Sadie, so she's Steve's daughter and publicist and wing girl and BFM.

SPEAKER_01 50:28

Yeah, she's the reason why I'm doing everything to help everybody.

SPEAKER_04 50:31

Um amazing. Oh that's beautiful. Your daddy's little girl, that's awesome. Having uh thank you for dad is the best friend. My pleasure, and thank you so much for being here. And thank you, Sadie, for being here. My dad was my best friend too. I totally understand that, and you love him, huh? And you're so glad he's happy and healthy with you, right? Yep, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 50:57

Well, thanks so much, guys.